xylia

[canterrain]

FWIW,

I used to thoroughly critique Talismen pages in the Tally forum. I mean thorough. Page by page, panel by panel. This actually came to a point where Barb asked me if I would do the same for the Epilogue. Now I do so for the Xylia pages too. (though I haven't been as thorough. Bad me. Bad. Will do better!)

As long as it's constructive (see Barb's example for what isn't constructive *hiss boo destroy*) Barb does a very good job of taking what is said and learning from it and applying it to future artwork, and owning up on 'my bad' on things. She is an artist who honestly knows how to take criticism (and by the way, criticism can be good comments too, much as we don't think of the word that way) and handling it gracefully and even getting a lot out of it.

[Merekat]

heheh oh, believe me, I'm old hat when it comes to critique. I just always try to test the waters before seeing what level of critique folks prefer. My favorite kind usually is very straight-to-the-point and matter-of-fact, efficient as I can get it type critique. However, some folks see this as harsh, others see it as a rite of passage. lol. Well, I suppose maybe not that bad, I tend to get a bit blunt if I don't watch it. However this of course in no way negates any positive feedback. I will mention everything that's going right as well as anything that might be not so right. And every critique I do is to help the artist improve what they might find will best evolve their individual works, not to cut an artist down or make them feel bad enough to quit. Heck, I ban those sorts of folk over back home. ;}

I suppose this is why they started calling me Sergeant Merekat over on the MT forums, but that led to the Boot Camp tutorial thread, so it can't be all bad, eh? :}

Anyway, I'm working on a paintover of Barb's page to make things a bit more clear than just spouting words. I do apologize if that step is a bit forward but sometimes pictures are worth quite a bit of words, etc. ;}

Will edit this post with it in a minute.

[edit:]

Alrighty. So first off, I'd like to commend you on your excellent character designs and lighting decisions. :} Very well done and I'm amazed at your nuances and details. In particular, I'm very impressed with your ability for profiles... those are by far the hardest I've found and your panel two seems to effortlessly pull them off. I can't find any fault with the faces, they're pretty darn schwell! ;}

You may want to watch the taper of xylia's neck towards the nape, but it's not bad. And you may want to consider downplaying the darkness of the jawline in such underlighting... or turn those lines more to the bright highlight color. There's a bit of conflicting information with the dark line being in such a light place.

But because you do profiles and 3/4 views so very well, I'm a little amused at some of your front-view treatments. You seem a bit unsure about form and placement concerning some of the facial structure.

From the front view, the side of the eye socket and the cheek structure meet at the temple to fill in the side of the skull. Check Liria's avatar for reference, but as you can see, from a straight on point of view, the side of the head would not cave in so. If it were like your drawing, her skull literally would be peanut-shaped! ;} Please excuse the playful analogy, but it seems as if you're mixing straight-forward features with a 3/4 profile silhouette. As you can see on my paintover below, I've straightened this out and added some more highlight according to the structure of her features.

clicky for paintover

Next I took out the deep lines between her eyes. I know this may somewhat help in line drawings, but if you're going to be coloring the images as thoroughly as you do, the deep lines in my opinion aren't as necessary and help to make her kind of fish-eyed.

I also tweaked the eyebrows a bit, but this is more my personal preference for shape. However, the length I think wouldn't extend so far over her eyes to the side of the head. And to make them so very evenly thin makes them look a little drawn on rather than actual hair, even in style. You might note the little tweaks in the inside brow with highlight and shadow to emphasize the expressing in this lighting.

As for the mouth, I replaced the dark underlip outline with a highlighted version, keeping more in synch with the lighting scheme. By keeping the dark line, you're portraying the information that from chin it dips in and out and then in and out again to the lip, so more like a ridged french fry. By omitting some lines for the sake of your lighting information, you'll more aptly tune the expression and impression to your intended atmosphere.

I also darkened the bottom lip into shadow for the light and highlighted the edge of it more directly.

Lastly, I worked on the tear. Because you were illustrating the lighting and environment so realistically, it seemed appropriate to bring the nature of a tear more in tune with that. Remember, they follow the shape of the face, including the lower eyelid. Yes, I did exaggerate the lid a bit more to show the lighting, but you get the idea. ;} The trick to water drops and streaks are very similar to lighting an iris, which I'll also explain in a moment. First, find a bit of a shadow tone... something maybe 2 shades darker than what your surface is. Streak that along where you want your tear to run.

Next, plop in your highlight on the side of the light where it'll hit the sharpest. It won't be as big as other marks, but it will be very direct and probably the most noticeable in contrast and intensity. Next, because light travels through water, you need to illustrate where it refracts on the back side of the drop. Also, because of your secondary blue light source, this allows us to have the sweeping stroke I've put on the upper right of the main drop at the end of the tear.

Next is the streak itself. Because of the run, it won't be the same thickness as the final tear, so it doesn't necessarily have to have highlight all the way up the streak. Only where it pools slightly at the fold of the lower lid on the cheek will it have enough to start behaving like a drop again. In which case, you can see I've put some of the highlight and refracting of the main drop into that shape. But as you can see, it's not a full and direct streak and behaves much more like a liquid.

Furthermore, if her eyes are wet enough for a tear, they should appear more moist and have a bit of pooling on the lid edge before it spilled over. I have exaggerated it a bit here, but I illustrated it just like the main tear, putting down a light stroke of tone before some highlights. This would cover somewhat the appearance of the iris, so make sure that is softened just a bit.

In keeping with the overall lighting, I also darkened down the whites of the eyes just a bit. By keeping them so white, they didn't look in key with the environment, and they're not forward enough in the face to get past the cheeks and be lit by your underlighting, so they had to be toned down.

Light works like a gradient. There is one place it hits first and that is the brightest and most intense location for the saturation and highlight. But from there it fades off and things it hits next will not be as strong or vibrant as the main highlight. The quickest way to flatten your painting is to highlight everything with the same intensity, for then you're telling the brain through the eye that everything is at the same level, therefore flat.

I probably should have toned down the forehead just a bit to make the chin and the cheeks read first, but I figured that might be a bit much for a first paintover. ;}

Now as a last comment on the irises... As I had mentioned, irises, being a feature below a clear substance of the lens works very similarly to a water droplet. You were absolutely correct to illustrate such a strong highlight at the bottom of the eye from the direction of the light source. However, as light will continue to travel through the lens, it'll hit the back of the iris for it's greatest color. Yes, in this lighting it might not be quite so extreme as in directly sunlight, but it will still have impact.

Here's a photo example of the lighting on an iris: eye

As you can see, your strong highlight is absolutely correct! ;} But the lightest part of the iris is on the opposite side of the highlight (and the shadow side of the white is a lot darker). Here's a simpler more anime version: clicky

Same idea, a bit less detail.

Oh, and I also tweaked his thumb. Remember, the body will self-shadow as well, so the form of the thumb casts a shadow on itself... particularly the cuticle form shadowing the knuckle a bit. They're tiny details, yes, but that's where the magic is. ;}

Finally, PS... Pay no attention to the folder I put your image in. It's just my catch-all dump folder and wasn't a commentary on your painting. ;} I think everyone has a folder like this, but I always worry just in case there's misinterpretation.

Anyway, I hope this helps and that I explained everything well. Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns about what I did. I do love your work and can't wait to see more of it. ;} Just thought these tidbits might be some tasty food for thought and you might find them useful.

Looking forward to your next update! Keep up the fabulous work!

Oh and remind me to track down a good tutorial I have that can help you with a lot of lighting information. It's one of my favorite references and I use it quite a bit myself.

[BarbJacobs]

Wow! You do certainly go all out on a critique. Thank you for your time and thought you have put on this. I will try to work on the accuracy of lighting in my future pages, but dont look for any huge improvements right away.

I have to say that your critiques are probably best put towards a realistic renderings, which is in all honesty not what I'm really shooting for or care to shoot for in this art. Your skill and talent is in realistic illustration, mine is in caricature and cartoons. There is a difference, and the main one is 'artistic license.'

I do use photo reference as a first reference, but then intentionally toss it aside for a much more important element to me, and that is an emotional element. Sometimes the lighting needs to stray from that which is scientifically acurate to one that is twisted to convey emotion.

Here is a perfect example:



While this is more 'photographically' accurate, to my eye, Xylia has become rather soulless in the second image. Aside from that, it is not MY style. One thing that I hear time and again from readers is that they connect with the characters and how 'expressive' they are. I don't ever want to sacrifice heart felt images for the sake of accuracy. That may be hard for you to understand, but it's how I operate, and how I want to.

Regarding skull shape- again- these are 'caricatures' to realistic renderings. (Man, I'd hate to see Bart Simpson's skull. LOL^_^) Xylia has round cheeks, and she is being viewed up close, so I've exaggerated this element. (check out the Little Mermaid or other Disney characters) This one was not as symmetrical as it could of been, but eh, people get it.

I won't be putting the hours into these pages of fully rendered illos. I'm sure your webcomic will be amazingly rendered, mine just wont. I'm not getting paid, and I want to get a page out a week. So I need to simplify- creat an 'impression' of the scene as best I can. If my audience connects with the characters and enjoys the story, I'm happy and I've done my job.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

~Barb

[Merekat]

Hey, all good. I wasn't trying to make you change style, just offering some suggestions that I thought might help with the turning of the shape. Sure I didn't really focus on the expression part of the painting, this paintover was all about technical aspects. I agree, there is more expression in the eyes on the left, but again, I had so many things I wanted to mention that I didn't want to dump even more of a dissertation into one post. I get a little verbose in explanations and I am detail-oriented.

But incidentally, just because I prefer to paint realistically that doesn't mean I don't understand comics and cartooning. There's just layers of information to get through, that's all. I was starting with the surface.

You might not like the style, but there is some good design information with this artist: http://cheeks-74.deviantart.com/ He's not Disney style, but it's good to see other things too, no? ;} But if you must have Disney, you might like this guy: http://www.runebennicke.com/

I'll stop buggin you with links now.

Either way, if you don't find the comments useful for your comic that's all well and good. I'm still happy to read just as much as anyone else and I look forward to your next comic update. Have a good night!

[canterrain]

From a technical aspect I find Meerkat's comments and suggestions quite good. Yes, the changing of the shape looks more realistic in regards to what a human's head should look like.

But taking a step back from that... I like Barb's better. Because Xylia isn't human. Something easy to forget since she looks very human. But the slight changes, the slight.. unrealness (to make up a CT word!) actually adds something for me to it. Gives it a very ethereal look, and reemphasizes for me the fact that she really isn't quite human. As a FWIW.

I feel the same way about the eyebrows for instance. Though Meer's is technically more correct from a human standpoint, and I will admit that at first the line effect kind of bothered me when I first started examining Xylia art... ultimately the eyebrows grew on me, and again it began to reemphasize to me... Faerie. Going to have characteristics not normal for a human. (*cough* like wings. Coming out of the back. *cough*)

Just some thoughts.

[BarbJacobs]

I certainly agree with CT that all of Mere's comments are outstanding, indeed she is far more skilled illustrator than I am. My issue aside from stylistic differences, is that I have little time to invest in this webcomicendeavor, and as it is a hobby, it will be difficult to improve to her level, or invest that amount of time into each page and still get one page out a week.

FWIW Mere, you had mentioned in an earlier post that your critiques have been known to discourage folks, and I probably would be in that category if I received regular criticism of this level of depth and detail on every page. Essentially, I do this project for personal enjoyment and while I always look for ways to improve, a brief critique here and there is easier to take (for me anyway) than several paragraphs of problems because it then frustrates me (even further than I already am) that I DON'T have more time to invest in improving my art. Anyone who knows me at all is aware that I have a demanding life that forces me to put my first love on the highest shelf while other priorities (some that I like much less) must take front and center.


Thank you again for sharing your wonderful talent and amazing knowledge with me. At some point in my life I hope to have the time in my life to devote to really perfecting my craft as you have!

~B

[Strange Ian]

Oh, fairy eye-brows... I just figured Xylia was an obsessive plucker. But as CT said, they grow on you.
Well, they grow ON Xylia, but you know...
Bad pun. Bad Ian.

Mere, your stuff looks amazing!
FWIW, I can see what you mean with your example, it is probably more realistic (not really an artist myself). But it's not Barbs style... And we do love the Barb-style!

[Merekat]

I had originally typed up a long explanation (yeah, this is 'short') of a couple things in principle, but upon re-reading your post, Barb, I felt it might be better received in the cliff's notes version. ;}

So here are the shooting-from-the-hip highlighted points:

* I didn't mean to overwhelm you, I'm used to giving critiques to my students (from Megatokyo and around the world. They're pretty varied if you'd ever like to see their work... cartoonists to fine artists and more). When you said you greatly welcomed critique, I thought you knew what you were asking for. My bad. :}

* About 'style': Style is a tool like a pencil or brush. I'd lay down money that any great cartoonist, anime artist and animator (including *any* Disneyites) has extensive life drawing and realism skills. They use that information as foundations on which to manipulate the pieces into creating their own expression. But without the library of information, you don't have as much to pull from. I'm not saying to stop everything and start realism, I'm saying looking at other styles and ideas is vital. By being exposed to many alternatives, the richer and more original your own work will become.

* About the paintover: I just wanted to help you with some foundations behind the structure of your work. I *fully* expected you to take the information and translate it into your style, not replace your style with it or evolve it into mine. I just ask you try to see the information for what it is, not dismiss it out of realism... I can give many Disney-style examples that would show the structure I am speaking about, if Disney is your goal. There is definite method to their madness and learning the knowledge behind their design will help you with your own.

* About study: I started out working at Kmart as a checkout girl, moved to a comic store as a clerk and Hallmark as a card stocker. College taught me graphic design, and only enough illustration for a blip in a magazine article. My first job was laying out kitty litter ads and fertilizer fliers. I taught myself to paint in my precious spare time. So if you are looking at where I am now and are seeing it as some Herculean leap of learning, sure, it can look daunting. But I didn't learn it overnight. I learned it bit by bit and it took years by myself.

The secret is seeing it in pieces. Don't worry about a huge amount of information. Try this: as you find a reference you need, put it in a folder system when you're done. Do this for any lighting you might find while browsing. Or anatomy, poses, expressions, etc. Then, when you're doing a panel, whip out a reference and study it while you're doing it. If you instill this habit of referencing while doing, over time, you'll pick up on a huge amount of information. And this way, it doesn't add any more time than you already take for the comic.

* About help: I am concerned that you said you are freaking out about your comic. It doesn't have to be that way. If you want help (in tiny, manageable doses) I am willing to offer what advice and guidance you might find useful. This can be from painting to lighting to anatomy and even to style. I might not cartoon often, but I can (and incidentally, my comic is going to be highly stylized, not realistic). And I know of a lot of professionals who are cartoonists by trade. There's a big ocean of resources for you. I can help you put a toe in the creek if you want. Not to change you, but to help you reach YOUR goals perhaps a bit more quickly.

;} This post would be the 'blunt' factor I've mentioned... trimming down posts to their mere basics is difficult for me, as I like to be comprehensive. So please don't take anything here as being gruff, egotistical or rude. I'm just trying to be efficient. I have respect for what you do and for this, your forum and your site.

If you want to read the long version of this post, let me know and I'll post it. Says roughly the same, just more completely.

PS. Canterrain: Fairy anatomy? heheheh C'mon... you can do better than that old excuse. ;} Where do you think they get all the good looking dragon and such anatomies from?

[BarbJacobs]

I went to college. I have a reference library. I look at other art all the time.

Believe it or not, I'm not an amateur. I'm a professional artist as well, although from the lofty tone of your advice, I know that you may find that hard to believe.

There, THAT'S how you do concise.

Sorry if I come off as bit gruff, but I'm in a bad mood today, and this intense public scrutiny from someone I barely know is really deflating any enjoyment I get out of this endeavor. Xylia is essentially a hobby.

I am not your 'student' nor did I ask to be. Criticism is one thing, but volumunious posts about 'how it's done' when you haven't been asked is a bit off-putting.

Thanks,

Barb

[Merekat]

My sincere apologies. This wasn't my intention at all and I didn't mean to hurt you or offend you in any way.

I also didn't assume you were my student, I said my lengthy posts were usually because they were for students. They were not lengthy to discourage or overwhelm you, they were lengthy because that's how I know to critique.

And I did ask you first before saying a word, I might add. Even in a thread where you specifically asked for feedback on your page, I very carefully asked you directly if you wanted critique on your art.

I not only got a resounding 'yes please, that's how you get better!' from you, but also a back up 'Barb can take all levels of critique' from another on your board. So I don't feel my post on critique was dumped on you from nowhere and I feel your saying it was imposed on you is a bit unfair.

I did not mean to insult you, I didn't mean to offend you or hurt you in any way, shape or form. Please forgive me as I didn't mean to be condescending in any way. This was not out of malice or snobbery, this was out of pure compassion from someone who knows what that feels like to be frazzled on a project.

I was really just wanting to help but it seems as if I've royally messed this up. Again, I sincerely apologize. Anything negative was not intended but obviously it happened anyway. Please forgive me.

Don't worry, you won't have to deal with me as an artist anymore. But I hope you don't mind if I still read your comic.

[canterrain]

PS. Canterrain: Fairy anatomy? heheheh C'mon... you can do better than that old excuse. ;} Where do you think they get all the good looking dragon and such anatomies from?

Old excuse? Truly, if you think of this as an excuse then I feel sorry for you. Yes. Reference is good. Important. And needed. Barb uses it alot by the way. But quite frankly, YES. Fairy anatomy. Because Xylia is NOT supposed to be human. Even if she looks somewhat human. And yes there is basis in human anatomy. But art thrives if you are willing to move AWAY from the reference and make it your own.

I've looked at your stuff. It's good. It's very good. But if I may be so blunt it's not 'yours'. It's manipulations of other people's artworks.

Yes anatomy is important. I cringe when, to use your example, I see a dragon with wings that couldn't -possibly- work. (I'm talking you, Eragon the movie). But that doesn't make the idea that, "I'm NOT drawing a human, it DOESN'T have to look exactly as a human would." a 'invalid excuse'. And again, if you truly believe it does... I see more into why your art, while from a technical aspect is quite good, is missing what I would call a soul. Which is what I've always loved about Barb's art. It has soul, expression, and a different kind of realism that most artists don't stop to think about. And I pray she never loses sight of.

That's me not being concise. But I never promised to be either.


Now all that aside. I think the problem Mere is not that you didn't ask if you could critique. Or didn't receive resounding yes's. Or any of that. Nor is that what I think Barb was trying to imply. But rather, when you stepped in and asked you presented your request FAR different from what you ACTUALLY GAVE. Check it out.

In commenting about these updated pages, are you looking for any feedback concerning artwork? I have one wee suggestion....

Now. Look at your critique. Can you -really- say that's one wee suggestion? Or paragraphs of comments? You also fail to follow a good model of criticism. If the point of criticism is to ENCOURAGE and artist, to not only improve their art and continue, then there must be ACTUAL encouragements, comments on what's being done right as well as done wrong. You made one quick comment on 'how great the lighting and character designs are' and then the rest of your critique went on to basically say that in fact the character designs are flawed as well as the lighting. And while you may not have claimed Barb was your student in words, you carefully worded everything in such a fashion that would suggest she was in fact a student and not understanding of the simplest things such as lighting gradients, the way tears work, and so forth. None of this was even put forth as SUGGESTION, but as "This is the way things are done, the way REAL artists do it."

If -I- may be so bold and pompous for a moment, allow me to show you what a critique that is helpful and not discouraging (something you admit to but don't seem to fix?) would look like.

This is the page I'm critiquing.

http://www.talismenseries.com/d/20051122.html

And this is the thread I critiqued the page in. Notice I will call her on art, but I won't tell her, "This is how you fix it you lunkhead." and I will talk about what went right as well. (Hehehe... or my other review.. tree blobs... I don't think Barb will ever forget that. *duck*)

http://talismen.free-forums.org/talismen-about342.html



There. NOW I'm done.

[BarbJacobs]

Miss Mere, I certainly accept your apology, and I believe that your points were not malintended, but I had wanted you to be aware that how it came across to me and to my friends as well, apparently. I'm being honest. It's something that I have learned is best in my life, and only fair to people, probably best for them as well. That way I do not harbor resentment, and that isn't good for anyone.

Your advice was good. In fact, none of it would have overwhelmed me if a lot of it hadn't been true. The point I was trying to make (and as CT has pointed out) is that your original comment was a 'wee suggestion' and that is not what you gave. If you had said, "may I leave a lengthy multi paragraph criticism that focuses on minor details of an entire page?" I honestly would have said "can you send that to me in a PM?" Or even, "not now please, I'm having a bad week in my life, and I'm hyper- sensitive about this Xylia project right now, too. Don't think I could handle that right now."

So I got stung. Lost my temper. I was pretty calm on the forum, but inside I was a snarling mess of insecurity. And here's the thing, you don't know me that well, so you wouldn't have known or cared about all that stuff, and this is why joining a forum and then bombarding someone with this much criticism seems rather arrogant to a lot of people. Perhaps the circle you run with is laden with steely confidence, and I hope that's true- there are so many artists out there lacking in confidence. But only good if you are confident without arrogance. Your work isn't THAT good. Yet. (Well, is anyone's work ever good enough to warrant cockiness?)

I think you have received this kind of response before, and truthfully it's because of how you come across -if I could be blunt, like a know-it-all.
For someone who enjoys critiquing as you seem to, it would be worth your while to learn how to write with tact, and definately how to condense your material, which is a writing skill that is VERY necessary. It will make your critiques more interesting, and more palpable. For someone like me with ADD- with the way you currently write, I make it to paragraph two and I'm already looking at shiny things across the room...

FWIW, I wasnt frazzled about the art. Well, I am NOW, but I wasn't before. It was the WRITING that I was worried about on page 5.

Cue the writer critics.

Don't worry, you won't have to deal with me as an artist anymore. But I hope you don't mind if I still read your comic.

Now, let's not go run away and be upset!! I'm not 'dealing' with you! I want you to stay! We just had a quarrel of sorts- we art types and our easily ruffled feathers! You know how it is. I want to be real with you because you deserve my honesty. Now let us leave this silliness and move onward.

In the future, if you want to criticize me, can you keep it smaller? Or 'wee' rather?

{{}}hugs

~B

[Strange Ian]

*takes out the ceremonial sword*
I hereby dub this "The Thread of Lengthy Misunderstandings and Following Explanations".
*CHOP*
Well, now we have first blood...
*Goes of looking for bandage. And her fingers.*

[Merekat]

;}

Yes, I will FULLY admit my comment about 'wee' was completely misleading (unintentionally). In fact, it had been 'wee' in my head, because it all boiled down to one thing: facial structure on one panel. So I did a paintover and wanted you to know all the areas I touched on. That's where it exploded and got huge. I am sorry.

Most of my circles do take a huge amount of critique. On such large art forums as conceptart.org and sijun.com and eatpoo.com (yes, that's the real name), these are forums that take huge amounts of text and worry over small details. But a large percentage of it is industry peers of games, movies and other such painters. And being surrounded by such peers in my day job also has similar atmospheres, it's just part of the job.

In short, I've been trained to eat, breathe and live this kind of scrutiny daily for the last six years. It's my industry, so I have to know how to do that. If you don't have a thick skin, you're eaten alive and some people are. But yeah, I admit it was a bit of a short-sighting of me to not test the waters when in a new locale. It was just habit. ;} Definitely my bad.

I think I have learned a few things in this:

always test waters.
don't use understatement, no one online gets the wry smile.
the internet doesn't work like the office.
wait 'til people know you before you get hyper-enthusiastic.
only write every third sentence that goes through my head.

Oh, and I wasn't upset quite that way... the 'deal with me' wasn't said in an emo way... more like a casual statement of fact? I felt I was becoming a nuisance. again, poor internet translation, pay it no mind. ;}

;} howzat? shorter?

[ZealousKnight]

I'd like to take a moment and commend both of you for responding rationally and, dare I say, humbly to mutual misunderstandings.

It's so easy to get offended and blow up and blow off, as it were. Thank you both, Barb and Merekat, for setting us a good example and resolving conflict well. I hope you both can forgive and move on, regardless of faults on either side, and become an encouragement to one another. I respect you both as artists and like to see those I respect interact well.